I expressed some surprise that a UK journalist wrote about Canton rather than Guangzhou, but someone has posted a comment defending that usage, saying that Guangzhou is too Mandarin. Well, maybe it is, but to a cloth-eared gweilo it doesn’t sound much different from Gwong Jau, which is the Cantonese version (I think). Either is surely preferable to "Canton", which is a real dog’s dinner – it appears to be derived from the English interpretation of the Cantonese name for the province, Gwong Dung, romanized as ‘Kwang Tung’ and then mis-pronounced.

I remember when the BBC switched from calling the Chinese capital ‘Peking’ to calling it ‘Beijing’. I suppose that this was when the Chinese government was pushing to get Putonghua adopted as the national language. I’m not totally sure how the earlier pronounciation came about, but I guess it is a mis-pronounciation of the Cantonese name, Bak-ging, so it is understandable that a correct pronounciation of the Putonghua version was preferred.

I suppose it’s unusual to make a change like this, but reasonable when the original was basically a mistake. Other changes have come when colonies gained independence and adopted names in their local language (Ceylon became Sri Lanka, Rhodesia became Zimbabwe and Salisbury became Harare, etc.), or where the old regime was overthrown (Persia/Iran, Burma/Myanamar), though these tend to be more controversial – The Daily Telegraph stubbornly carried on calling the country Iran Persia, long after the downfall of the Shah, and many people still refuse to use the name Myanamar because they disapprove of the regime. However, I can’t think of any other examples where the name of a city has stayed the same in the local language but the official English version has changed.

Why do I feel happy to say ‘Cantonese’ for the language but baulk at calling the city ‘Canton’? I suppose it just doesn’t sound right to mix the Chinese name with the English suffix (-ese). By the same token, I wouldn’t say ‘I speak Francais’ – well, probably I shouldn’t claim to speak French, full stop, but that’s another matter.

Actually, there is very little consistency worldwide when it comes to how to pronounce foreign cities, and I suspect that again it often comes down to little more than what sounds right. For example, I think most Brits would pronounce Paris as an English word (rather than saying ‘Paree’ as the French do) but Lyon in the French way (not ‘Lions’ as per the English spelling, Lyons). When Ajax Amsterdam were one of the leading European football teams, some people pronounced it as it spelt, but others thought that sounded odd – perhaps because there was a well-known brand of cleaning liquid with that name – and used the Dutch pronounciation ("Aye-yaks") instead. Is it pretentious to use the local pronounciation? Maybe it is if you are not consistent, just picking and choosing a few foreign names and sticking with English most of the time.

Pretentious, moi?

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8 responses to “I say Guangzhou, you say Canton”

  1. m.c. avatar

    I’m not sure if the original one was always a mistake (Peking, Canton) but rather a name that was more friendly to the English speaking people when they first came (Peking obviously sounds more like English than Beijing). BTW, I personally prefer the name Canton. The old name is probably good for the city as well if they want to internationalize the city.

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  2. fumier avatar

    Why do people say ‘putonghua’ instead of ‘Mandarin’? And why do Honkies refer to Cantonese as ‘Chinese’ when it is just one dialect out of many? I’ve seen Honkies and Mainlanders get at cross purposes a number of times when each was referring (in English) to his own dialect as ‘Chinese’.
    By the way, if you pronounce the Mandarin for ‘London’ just slightly wromg, it sounds like ‘squatting on the toilet’ (especially if you accompany it with a bit of sign language).

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  3. Eric avatar

    Personally, I think we should just translate all foreign placenames. Loanwords are a sign of pretention or intellectual laziness. Obviously, this is easiest with Chinese placenames; in most other languages, placenames come from mutated versions of pronunciations in dead or ancestral languages.
    In fact, this is what Chinese have done sometimes when translating names into the Chinese language, at least with some fairly transparent names like Salt Lake City, Oxford, etc. Makes them sound just like some little village over the hill. But to get the same effect English, we’d have to translate names into Anglo-Saxon or something. E.g.
    China: Midlond
    Shanghai: Onholm
    Beijing: Norburg
    Guangdong: Eastbrad

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  4. Chris avatar

    m.c> It just sounds rather improbable that anyone would devise a name that was easier for foreigners to say – who did this, and when? I still think it’s more likely that there was some sort of misunderstanding.
    I’ll concede that Canton is easier for foreigners to say, but there doesn’t seem to be much difference between Peking and Beijing.
    Fumier> I avoid using “Mandarin” because I believe that it’s an old fashioned term. Unfortunately there is no English version of ‘Putonghua’.
    Eric> Translating names isn’t a bad idea, except that they sound very mundane that way (unless you are extremely pretentious and render them in Anglo-Saxon).

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  5. justpassby avatar
    justpassby

    “Fumier> I avoid using “Mandarin” because I believe that it’s an old fashioned term. Unfortunately there is no English version of ‘Putonghua’. ”
    Mandarin is the version that is still popular in Taiwan.
    ‘Putonghua’ is the so called “common language” of China, which is heavily based on the beijing version of mandarin with some local slang taken out. It is a sort of MADE UP as the national dialect, not particular to any specific location.
    When you listen to them, they are not exactly the same.

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  6. Eric Vinyl avatar
    Eric Vinyl

    Peking comes from Peiking, an older romanization of the same word—北京。

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  7. bathrobe avatar
    bathrobe

    Many people are under the apprehension that ‘Peking’ is some sloppy transliteration by missionaries who couldn’t hear properly. Actually, Peking is not merely an older romanization; it represents a different and older pronunciation of the city’s name. The pronunciation ‘king’ or ‘ging’ is in fact still found in some dialects (including dialects of Mandarin, not merely Cantonese).
    The ‘pei’/’bei’ thing is a matter of romanization and is also not as silly as it looks. The sound ‘b’ or ‘p’ is an unaspirated, unvoiced consonant. To English speakers it sounds like a ‘b’; to Japanese speakers it sounds like a ‘p’ (because Japanese ‘p’ is unaspirated). So there is nothing sloppy about this, either.
    The shift to ‘Beijing’ is motivated by the adoption of pin’yin as the official romanization. It’s fine to use ‘Beijing’, but there’s no need to denigrate ‘Peking’ as some have done (although not at this page).

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  8. bathrobe avatar
    bathrobe

    Regarding country names, there always seems to be politics of one kind or another involved. Look at Cambodia, for instance, which changed to ‘Kampuchea’ when the Khmer Rouge were in power and then changed back again when they were ousted. As we switched back and forth, were all just respecting the Cambodians’ right to call their country what they wanted, right?
    Or take India. The country has decided that all those colonial names have to go, so ‘Bombay’ has been changed to ‘Mumbai’, etc. But if you go to Mumbai, and you’ll still find lots of Indians still say ‘Bombay’. Indians will also tell you that it was just something cooked up by the politicians. Are we being disrespectful of Indians if we say ‘Bombay’ too?

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